[Breakingthesilence] Re: [Pga_europe_process] This is hard to handle

fin ffin74 at yahoo.co.uk
Lun 19 Avr 20:34:21 CEST 2004

 Question (9) on the questionairre was re-written from
a simple form ;"What do you think/feel about men only
and women only spaces/ support groups ?", because
there were concerns that it would not be understood.
It looks like those concerns have created the very
thing which they wished to avoid.
The ommision of the word feel from q. 9 section (b)
was an error as the word was most certainly meant to
be there.
Do you think it would be worth doing a re-write and
sending it to the p.g.a list ? 


 --- paki.tv at cyber-rights.net wrote: > -----BEGIN PGP
> Hash: SHA1
> I have only just discovered that the
> Breakingthesilence mailing list
> )
> exists, and I find myself already quite distraught
> by what I find.
> Firstly, I came across the questionnaire which is
> most disturbing.
> It seems that people on this discussion are happy to
> pay lipservice to
> dealing questions of racism and then use rhetoric to
> create confusion.
> Ok, so why no question about race in the
> questionaire?
> Question 9:
> a) what do you think/feel about
> people/groups/classes taking the time
> to meet specifically amongst themselves as a tool to
> fight against
> domination or oppression by others. (for example, as
> "women only"
> discussions/working/support groups/spaces but also
> in the context of
> immigrants/"ethnic" minorities in racist
> society/working class
> people in a capitalist society/disabled people/
> gays and lesbians etc.) ?
> b) what do you think about men taking the time to
> meet amongst
> themselves as a way of stimulating reflection and
> action about the way
> that men can (consciously or unconsciously) dominate
> or oppress women
> and
> try to develop constructive strategies in working
> against oppressive
> masculine behaviours and the restrictive nature of
> socially imposed gender
> constructions?
> This is an upsetting case of the use of "rhetoric".
> 1) The first point is asking about how people
> think/feel, but in the
> second case it is restricted to how people think.
> Why was "feel" dropped.
> 2) Why this move into immigrants and ethnic
> minorities? Please? This
> is so unclear.
> We are heading off to a place which has been deeply
> scarred by ethnic
> cleansing, where wars have been set in motion by
> competing ethnicities
> each claiming they are oppressed by the other. e.g.
> Slobodan Milosovic's
> campaigns for downtrodden Serbs in Kosovo.
> Yet you throw in a question like this as window
> dressing for your questionnaire?
> Have you no hearts? DO you not know where Belgrade
> is?
> Having seen stuff like the "personal reflections",
> with all its references
> to Black struggles, in the US, it was tempting to
> think that this might
> mean something. But now that is so very hard to
> imagine.
> The questions around Black politics was drawing
> together the bulk of
> humanity against the racism of Europe and
> European-Americans, by no means
> an "ethnic minority", which is a term developed by
> the
> liberal establishment to weaken Black struggles. Why
> do you repeat the
> use of such a term?
> Why do you use the term "immigrant", which clearly
> looks at people from
> the perspective a host population?
> Nico's text (soon to be more widely circulated)
> speaks of the importance
> of language, so why is this happening???
> So in response to your question, I would argue that
> having "women only"
> spaces is good provided that mothers of young
> children can take their
> children with them there.
> This is because we live in a patriarchal society
> were women are oppressed.
> Therefore banning men from a certain space is an
> important way to enable
> women to better cope with that oppression.
> I find question 9 b) manipulative in that it talks
> vaguely about "men
> taking the time to meet amongst themselves . . ."
> when really what is
> being talked about here is spaces and meetings from
> which women and children
> are banned.
> Also, although unstated, other concerns arise, so
> perhaps 9 b) could
> be reworded:
> How do you think/feel about having a space where
> women and children would
> be banned so that men can have private discussions?
> How do you think/feel about having a space where
> people of colour would
> be banned so that white people can have private
> discussions?
> How do you think/feel about having a space where
> working class people
> would be banned so that affluent people can have
> private discussions?
> I would support a block on any men-only spaces or
> meetings.
> Fabian
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