[Pga_europe_process] last international preparatory meeting report
ni co lu
nicolu at chutelibre.org
Fri Jun 18 21:16:28 CEST 2004
A few personal words about this new report :
Part is missing and there might be sentences in a real bad english. But it
already took me too much time. I will send try to send soon the decision
making structure proposal after discussing it with nina. so I didn't add
the first proposal I made during the meeting in this report.
As any report not only made of detailed minutes (which would make it in this
case, pretty much unreadable and useless), it a partly subjective rewording
and synthetic reorganisation of what was said, discussed and decided. There
could be big mistakes, as our meetings, debates and decisions are sometimes
difficult to follow clearly and that we had a huge amount of complicated
discussions and informations during these two days.
So please tell me if I put anything in a too subjective way or if you
understood things differently before we make it public on the website.
Read it in details also because there are some informations lacking, and it
would be good to implement it before we make widely public.
We're now one month before the beginning for the conference. One of the big
challenge this time was to organize a conference on a decentralized way with
a local collective which still quite small and without much experience of
organizing such events. it's mainly a conference for debates, meetings,
workshops and not an action camp and there shouldn't be so much pressure an
speed than when both are mixed. But given the much uneasy contemporary
context of serbia, it's seems quite a huge action in itself to organize it
there. At the least an exciting project as leaving more confortable activist
places for another reality will surely bring a lot of new ideas, contacts,
exchanges and collective strategies to fight state and capitalism..
But there are still nevertheless not so many people involved in the
organisation, so please read this (and summaries of all preparatory meetings
important decisions that should come soon ) more than cautiously and act,
otherwise this conference might really not look like we/you want it to be.
Without panicking, we should really be worried about the huge amount of
things that still has to be done. A lot of people are still needed to take
responsabilities and organize various important tasks and practicalities
(see the list below). Lots of material has to be found.
This has to do with experimenting how much we're able of horizontal
participative self-management in a network like pga and the way we can
organize such events without control of the institutions and state.
So please do something, contact people, join existing groups and don't wait
for the last day to think about getting involved into the organizational
[C] is for consensus
[P] is when people are urgently needed to do this tasks
I) Important calls and texts to be done in the next few weeks
II) Important tasks with nobody taking responsibility for it
III) Starting list of material needed (to completed by the various logistic
A) Communication and content :
1)Content and main issues :
a) texts about the various main issues :
2)Conference reader and practical guide :
3)(P) Conference daily newsletter
5)European conference of pga or pga conference in europe ? :
6)(P) press work :
7) Visibility day
8) festival :
9)Outreach with eastern european groups :
10)embedded meetings during the conference :
12)[P] contact activities with locals before the conference :
B) general organizational and decision making structure :
1)For what do we need collective decision making structures ?
1)New possible Locations for the conference
2) People arriving in advance in belgrade to help with the conference
3) Rooms, tents and structures needed :
4) money, budget and donations for the conference
5) (P) Applications, visas :
7)[Þ] legal assistance
8)medical assistance :
10)people selling things :
11)[P] bar issue :
12)[P] People sleeping in local people's homes during the conference :
15)[P] insurances :
16)[P] electricity / phone / computer connection
I) IMPORTANT CALLS AND TEXTS TO BE DONE IN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS :
a public call by dsm for people to come in advance
a final list of who is already responsible for what
a public call for material needed and people needed for tasks
a public call for people to fill the application forms.
a public call for a new convenor
sending the introductive political texts for the various main issues
writing and editing of practical guide and conference reader
text about the decision making structures.
II) IMPORTANT TASKS WITH NOBODY TAKING RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT :
There are still no people around the pga network to coordinate/take
responsabilities for these various important tasks : organize the daily
People arriving a few weeks in advance to help in belgrade
organize facilitation, minutes taking and reports during the conference
telephone and internet connection
sleeping spaces at locals
and surely others...if you have a better look at the report
III) STARTING LIST OF MATERIAL NEEDED (TO COMPLETED BY VARIOUS LOGISTIC
big military or circus tents /smaller ones
electric cables and plugs
lots of chairs and tables
photocopy machine A4 printing paper / computer printers
small fm radios
medical kits and medical materials
wood, big tarpolin pieces, rope, metal bars, nails, screw and gnerally
building material and buildings tools
all kind of small office material as pen, papers, glue, cisors whatever...
A) Communication and content :
1) Content and main issues :
There are still not much applications for debates and workshops and
consequent difficulties for the program/content group to organize the
a) texts about the various main issues :
we first decided of a deadline for the introduction texts about the various
main issues of the conference to be sent on the pga process list for the
fifteenth of june :
these texts have to stay short and go on an A4 recto verso
The various issues and people responsible for it (these coordination groups
are open, so please join them and contact the people !) :
Gender issues : breakingthesilence at gendertrouble.org
Migrations : migrativeart at skynet.be
Working conditions, class, workers and non-workers struggles, labor society
(that's not the final name for this issues but just words to define what we
want to talk about) : migrativeart at skynet.be + stella and dimitris from
eurodusnie but I don't have their email adresses
Critics of industrial society, sustainable technologies :
nicolu at chutelibre.org (but he's going to find another contact inside the
Critics of European integration, Balkan situation, nationalism:
migrativeart at skynet.be
Alternatives to capitalism : zapata at shezampro.yu
Militarisation of politics, wars, imperialism and social control :
bozavine at yahoo.co / j
Global mouvement : Are we a mouvement ? what next ? going out of the ghetto
? : skrati at yahoo.com / skrati at yahoo.com /
2) Conference reader and practical guide :
[C] The conference practical guide will offer :
an overview of all practical, logistical, political informations needed for
the conference. The way people can participate, eat, sleep, participate to
decision taking, legal and medical informations, explaining shortly the
various choices and consensus that have been made during the preparation
[C] The reader of the conference will offer :
a program of the various workshops/ events and public debates +
introductions to the chosen main political issues (W : various people / see
april meeting report) + introduction to the pga network structures and
debate about its future + introduction about the issue of the openness of
the network + an introductive text to post-yougoslavian context.
[C] Both reader and practical guide writing and editing will be coordinated
by.nicolu at no-log.org, lipjo at no-log.org and seeds at gn.apc.org. It would be
really great and needed if other people could join and contact us for both
content, translation, layout, spreading and printing, especially people from
3) (P) Conference daily newsletter :
[C] - we agreed on having a daily printed newsletter during the conference.
a) printing plans :
there might a mobile printing structure from germany
coming (seed at gn.apc.org is the contact person for them) - there might a
printing cooperative from belgrade that could print the daily newspaper,
but we also thought that it might be easier and cheaper to just photocopy it
in a copy shop every morning.
b) language of the newspaper :
there should be ideally three languages : english, serbo-croeatian and
russian. But it will depend if anybody wants to do this translation work
everyday. People of the editorial team will try to do their best.
c) we'll give a call to find a team of people who would like to work on it
(articles writing, editing, layout, translation) as there was nobody at the
preparation meeting who wanted to take responsibility for it.
4) posters :
- we have posters made in germany to advertise the conference.
It's possible to receive some by asking infoladen_hanau at gmx.net
( C)- there was a debate bout the fact that it looked western focused and an
agreement that if more material is printed there should be a thought to made
it no so western focused.
5) European conference of pga or pga conference in europe ? :
(C)- it was decided that even if happening in europe, it was open to people
of other continents and that it would sound less imperialist to call it "pga
conference in europe" instead "european pga conference" on any future
6) (P) press work :
We might not focus too much time doing the mainstream media work. as nobody
at this meeting wanted to take care to make them come and send press
releases and that people seemed to be more willing in working on alternative
But there's is still a wish to do some mainstream media work (big decisions
about it are on april's meeting report)
(C)coordination with local medias should be prepared by local people / there
should be some press work done locally before the conference.
(C)We'll create a mainstream press infopoint outside/at the entrance of the
camp where they can go and find people to speak with
(C)we want a press conference to be organized at the beginning of/just
before the conference
[C]we decided we could invite them specifically to bigger public
events/debates and at the visibility day at the Sava centre if it happens.
[C] journalists are not welcomed in the camp and workshops and therefore we
should make them aware of that and prevent them to come as we can.
There is still nobody both locally and internationally who wants to take
responsability for the media work during the conference.
7) Visibility day
A day of presentation of the conference and meeting with belgrade people at
the sava center in belgrade
Debate about it :
some people from dsm think that a lot of locals from other districts might
not come to resnik and rakovica and therefore would like to propose a big
visibility day in belgrade to attract more people. This event could happen
in the sava center (a huge conference Beaubourg style centre with conference
rooms, small and big where we could have, debates, videos, workshops...)
2)- some people are afraid that the the conference might be too marginal and
not open enough if it stays all week in one of this suburb of belgrade.
3)- DSM had debates about the use of the sava as it is the most expensive
building in belgrade and that some people were not pleased with the way it
would make the conference look like.
4) - pga conference is different from
a social forum because it's more participative, organised horizontally and
autonomously from state institutions, try to break leaders system and to
have workshops and debates done by grassroots activists and not profesional
politicians or universitarian ideologists. We should therefore be careful on
the kind of dynamic this more massive, media-looking visibility day can give
to the conference, and that it doesn't look like a social forum but shows a
more accurate pictures of a pga conference.
Decisions about it :
In the end, we agreed to have this visibility day at the sava center on
various conditions : :
[C] it will be taken if it's for free
[C] it's seen as reproducing the conference in another place
(C) we'll try to have not only presentation/speeches but participative
structures and things that can represent the way pga conference works
(C) we'll try to prevent only a few spokepersons to present their movement
and pga but to show a large diversity of people talking
(C) if the sava center conference happen, maybe we'll be able to find
extra-money to invite a few people from other continents for the conference
(C) it can be used for cultural things / exhibition as well
(C) it could be linked with other visibility activities in belgrade in the
streets the same day.
Contact person for the visibility day : migrativeart at skynet.be
8) festival :
It will be only a three days festival (it was a project of seven days at the
There will be one evening event with some folk/popular music / one day with
punk music but more in resnik around the lake because it makes more noise
The musical evenings will open and close the conference... it will be asked
in the application form if people want to propose some other cultural
These musical/festival events will happen at a place separated from the camp.
There will be other things organized by the culture group (exhibitions,
street theatre, screenings....)
9) Outreach with eastern european groups :
people asked about more analysis about the local and historical context of
the post/ex yougoslavia during the conference.
we need to do more direct invitation and personal contacts with eastern
- communication with kosovo has been done by one collective in belgrade.
They want to make them involved in the process.
10) embedded meetings during the conference :
- no border (see april meeting report)
"horizontals" from eastern european countries working with social forums.
(see april meeting report)
- abolishing the borders from below will have a magazine coordination
meeting during the pga conference.
(C) We should ask all the embedded meetings if it's only internal meetings
or if they also want to propose more open/public debate workshops The
embedded meetings should fill the application forms for their workshops and
precise if it will be public or closed to people of their network.
11) [P] translation :
-we need to define how many documents and meetings need to be translated and
in how many languages. (will that be done by the program group ??)
need of a local coordinator for the translation
we have to tell people to bring a very small radio with earphones (they cost
one euro in serbia)
we 'll know the main languages we need for translation through people
answering in their application form.
we call people to find translators in their own country.
javier at spc.org is still ok to be the international contact for translation.
12)[P] contact activities with locals before the conference :
- It's a really important job if we want to create good relations with
locals and even try to involve them in part of the conference activities. It
can unfortunately mostly be done by locals before the conference. we thought
international participants to the conference could help developing it the
week before through either open collective dinners, meetings, screenings,
spreading of information about the conference...
B) general organizational and decision making structure :
marco at eurusnie.nl putted a diagram of the leiden organization structure on
the website. For other general decision we made (coordination group /
various teams...) see past preparatory meetings report (especially april's
1) For what do we need collective decision making structures ? :
we need to decide about a clear decision making structure before the
conference. These decision making structures concerns three levels and
various issues :
a) for logistics and organization just before and during the conference.
General decisions, links between the various workings groups, ways to open
it to new people...
b) for discussions about the pga network future, structures and evolutions
and the decision that have to be taken about it :
c) for emergency collective decisions that could need to be taken during the
Regarding the discussions and decisions about the pga network, we decided to
find something else than a group of "specialist" meeting during one week and
a big decisional plenary at the end. The idea would be to have it more
participative and involving more people during the week and to find
something better than a plenary to take complicated decisions with a few
Regarding the logistical/organization decisions the week before and during
the conference, some want to keep it under the responsibility of a small
coordination group (as it was done in leiden) in order not to have too many
daily meetings with too many people. Others wanted to find a way to make it
a bit more open and participative.
Some also thought it would be really important and useful to have a system
of daily morning plenary (even quit short) in order to all see each other
and exchange directly important informations, others thought it would be
useless, tiring and an inadequate way to share informations and moreover, to
All these discussions were really interesting, but we didn't reach a final
decision (one of the reason being that all these pga things about plenary or
not ?, spokes councils, small groups, consensus decision making, pga
structures problematics, and other marvelous creatures were quite new to
some people from belgrade and others and that they wanted more time for
explanations and thinking about it).
nicolu at no-log.org made an attempt to regroup some of the ideas and to
formulate a proposal. It was decided that skrati at yahoo.com and
nicolu at no-log.org would rework on this proposal and add to it explanations
about the various terms used and detail a bit more the issues that would
have to be discussed about the pga network.This document should include the
issues that need to be decided upon, in a clear manner that explains the
political implications and main arguments. It would also need to be
other people are invited to do so and to send other proposals as well.
They'll have to send this document on the list early enough for people to
think about it. A collective decision about the decision making structure
will then be taken the week before with both people from belgrade and other
people coming in advance to help with the organisation.
Issue of new convenors :
We need a call done before the conference by dsm and then recall it
regularly during the conference.
C) Logistic :
1) New possible Locations for the conference :
As there are ifficulties with local authorities and not much confirmations
to get the various places, there might be a new location for the conference
: Jajinci, another suburb not far away from resnik.
we can have there (various spaces might well have been forgotten in this
report) : Primary school (2schools) 9 classrooms for 30 people. +
Municipality building with place for theatre, 200 people (cultural center)
Football field : 56-82 meters.
separate field for dry toilets
monument park. (woods, grassfields.. .)
Still waiting for formal approval.
factory in rakovica :
There is a factory with a cafeteria for 500 people that we can get for free
(if we paint it). It could be interesting for debates about struggles around
the working issues ans well as if we need a space for a final plenary or big
spokes council. No decisions was made on the factory and if we accepted to
repaint the cafeteria.
DSM people will tell us as soon as they have a final confirmation for
2) (P) People arriving in advance in belgrade to help with the conference
Urgent call for people coming one month in advance :
DSM is still a small group of people with too much work to make it happen
only by themselves and they desperately need a few people to come on month
in advance in belgrade to help locally preparing the conference. they need
as many people as possible, at least for a month before and have two
available flats/offices where they can stay; so they're going to do a call
for people to come in advance.
the volunteer camp :
It's group of around 15-30 people coming two or three days in advance to
help with material practicalities and building work. It's through an
organisation who organize these kind of volunteer camp on different kind of
projects. They don't much relationship with the conference and will eat and
live autonomously from other people arriving in advance to help as well.
People coming one week in advance to help with the conference preparation :
People are invited to come in advance to help with the preparation work.
There are already people from holland, france and england who announced that
they would come a few days before. People from DSM will try to have a place
for 50 people to camp one week in advance. They will try to have the
football field for the preparation work one week in advance.
3) Rooms, tents and structures needed :
we started to estimate the number of different spaces needed for the
- info point
computer /indymedia place
a gymnasium for people to sleep in,
+ 8 different places to have from small workshops to big debates at the same
It would therefore make around 18 rooms/tents/spaces needed
As soon as they know the final place for the conference and how many room
will be available, decorte at eunet.yu will send a message to say how many
tents/structures should be found or built.
it might be necessary to build some tents for meetings/workshops (there is a
possibility to build the same type of dome than the one used for the no
border camp in strasbourg. If people of belgrade find a wood factory where
we can buy the various pieces of wood needed (it's only two very simple and
usually very cheap wood sticks).
Contact about the domes : nicolu at no-log.org). We can also give a call for
people to bring some big tents.
contact person on this issue : decorte at eunet.yu
4)money and financial needs :
a) money : donation and ecorating
- discussion on the fact that ecorating
could keep discriminations on a national level and not include the fact that
you can also have low wages or no wages in rich countries.
(C) therefore ecorating won't be a rule but only a guideline for things that
need to be sold like beers.
b) budget and donation system for the conference :
- I don't have on the minutes the exact report made by the finance group,
but a lot of money still has to be found to make people come and to pay for
the basic structures, so a lot of initiatives are neede.
(C) marco at eurodusnie.nl wants to help doing the budget and keep an eye on
the budget during the conference. seeds at gn.apc.org and decorte at eunet.yu also
worked on a budget.
(C) we'll work with a donation system : the finance group will do a budget,
see how much is foundraised, how much still need to be found and find an
average donation based on 600 hundred people that could cover the costs and
ask people to donate what they can, based on their personal wealth (more or
less than the average donation or nothing if they don't have any money) (C)
there should some explanations about the money participations in the reader
of the conference.
c) what will be financed with the collective/general money for the
(C)some groups will need a budget for specific projects (cultural festival /
(C)we let final autonomy to the finance group in agreement with the rest of
the coordination group, to decide what they will finance.
(C) getting more people and basic infrastructures should be the first
priorities (and we yet don't have much money for that) and specific projects
should find extra foundings as much as possible (if extra founds for the
conference are coming in the next few weeks, we can think about other
5) (P) Applications, visas :
A call need to be sent for people to fill the application for the
(C) Some people said that it was important to say that the conference was not
closed to people from "europe" but open to people and collectives from
everywhere. On the other hand, we don't have much ressources to find founds
for people from really far away to come and we'll therefore help more people
from countries around to come.
(C) we'll encourage people from anywhere in the world to come, we'll do the
visas but dont have money to help them to come.
(C) we'll focus on helping people from excluded part from the european
continent and areas around the meditteranean to come.
(c) there will be priority criterias for people coming from europe and areas
(C) there could be other criterias : for example if people come as
individuals or with a group behind.
6) (P) Security :
it is difficult to estimate the security problems that might arise but 600
people coming for one week in a poor suburb can bring/create tensions
depending on the way we behave and prepare it + the fact that there are
quite a few active nationalist extreme right group and quite strong feeling
of nationalism in part of the population as well as a police and government
now driven by nationalist extreme-right parties.
a) Proposal for the "security team" :
[C] people will be given a pass for the camp area when they register and
this space should be reserved to those people (knowing that on the other
hand, we won't create strict "border check control" for the camp)
[C] workshops and debates will be opened to anyone
[C] we need an area that can be locked for expensive stuffs with a ticket
[C] we'll let the people coming to help preparing the conference the week
before decide if we need a kind of fence or not around the camp in order to
protect it from various kind of annoyance and attacks. (from police to
fascist or various kind of aggressive idiots).
[C] we will have a group of pga conference participants who volunteer
everyday (10 people who turn every 6 hours / ) and a group of people who
coordinate it and think about it in advance (dave (does someone has his
email adress ?) + lipjo at no-log.org)
[C] a 1 hour training period should be organised to explain what is expected
from people (in particular that they don't act as a militia)
[C] people can subscribe for it when they register to the conference
[C] avoiding panic reactions and rumours /
[C] mix of local and internationals /
[C] it won't be the same people everyday /
[C] we dont want any specific organised militia / but a good emergency call
[C] as we strongly criticize the state justice and its securitarian and
punitive system, we'll try at the most to solve any problem within ourselves
and to use police/state/justice system in the last resort and hopefully not
[C] we need some guidelines for this task to be clearly written
[C] if a situation is too heavy / complicated to be solved by this group
and concerns everybody in the camp, there could be the need for a plenery
or spokes' council .
[C] we need a few mobiles and radios for the security team.
[C] we need a specific space where people can go in case of problems / it
could be the same place than the infopoint.
b) [C] about the festival : we'll ask the culture group people to organize a
specific team for that, a team that could be opened to participants to the
c) about the eventuality of individuals victims of sexist/homophobic/racist
(C) -a quiet space would be needed, but it should be part of an existing
space (maybe the medical tent)
(C)- we'll create a coordination of medical, legal, gender group people to
deal with it (helping the victim and finding a way to deal with it and to
understand what happened). It doesn't have to be used in all cases of
aggressions, it is created in case of people being harassed and not having
other solution/friends to help them dealing with it.
[C] it was asked to
enlarge the text about sexual harassment that will be distributed to every
participants of the conference, and to link it with other type violence such
as homophobic / racist and other types of aggressions.
7) [Þ] legal assistance /
need of a team of people who are ready to do legal assistance
specific legal assistance space and phone number
we need of a lawyer that we could call in case of problems / trials that
could be dealt only through the legal team.
we need money reserves for eventual legal problems
we need of a legal guide /legal advise added in the practical guide of the
we'll have to think how to bring equipment in the country and a legal body
for that. Transit paper might be needed for equipment.
! There is still nobody taking responsibility to create this legal team and
inquire about locals laws (the legalities about bringing equipment should be
known well in advance and written publicly on the website). It would be a
lot easier to have local people taking responsibility for that !
8) (P) medical asistance :
[P] insurances information are needed in the practical guide / but nobody's
doing it yet. european street medic list could be asked if some of them want
to come (matias at q-olio.net is going to ask them / nicolu at no-log.org will ask
some advisory things about the hot weather should appear on the practical
guide as most cases of illness might came from stupid littles things related
to camping by 40° and not taking care.
9) Recycling :
[C] we'll ask people on the conference guide to produce the less waste
possible because it's shit and because there's no recycling system in
- [C] we would like to find ways to recycle/ reuse/give what we use during
the conference.we'll have to find something for plastics bottles and metal
10) people selling things :
600 hundred people, part of them coming form countries that are much richer
than serbia (nevertheless how poor they may be in their own countries) will
quite surely attract a lot of people trying to sell things (from food to
drugs or black clothes :) ), especially with so many people unemployed and
living from small street business in serbia.
[C] we don't want shops and selling inside the camp
[C] we'll try to communicate about it with people selling things
11) [P] bar issue :
[C] we want a drug free and alcohol free area clearly indicated in the campsite
[C] we're ok to organize a bar
[C] the best would be to have one bar in a building and outside the camp
area and a bar located in a space outside that could be more quiet and close
[C] donations and any benefit will go to the global organization of the pga
- bar : we need people to organize it and there's nobody yet.
12) [P] People sleeping in local people's homes during the conference :
we thought it could be important to organize this and let the possibility to
either choose the camp or people's homes.
there's nobody yet to organize it yet locally.
13) kids :
the kids group is still working and trying to link kids activities with
issues and activities of the conference..
- a convoy with kids and adults from france to belgrade will leave around
the 10th- 13th of july to have time to make stops on the road and be there a
few days before the conference to join. people with kids or without are
welcomed to join it.
contact : lipjo at no-log.org
[C] It was finally decided to both ask and pay rad to cook for the
conference and also to have some self-managed volunteer based smaller
rad will cook and bring their field kitchen to serve on site .
rad is a food
enterprise/ex-socialist coop from belgrade and under urgent threat of
privatisation. They often help other workers in struggle and were interested
with the conference in itself) there will be equal wages to everybody in rat
from cleaner to cooker.
they will not do breakfast.
we consider that we want to organize food for around 600 everyday. Once
we'll know for how many people the other cooking collectives want to cook,
we'll ask rad to cook for the rest and make them know in advance for how
many it will be. People linked with cooking collectives have to give answers
about that as soon as possible.
Once we have ordered a specific daily numbers of dinner to rat, we have to
make sure that enough people will eat at rad so : when people will come to
register to the conference, we'll first ask them if they're ok to eat with
rad and therefore to take food tickets for rad . Once we have reached the
number of people needed for rad, the other will be invited to eat at other
There should be help so that people who don't have much money can also eat
everybody is going to eat at the same place
there's a possibility to help rat with recipes and experience of vegetarian
cooking collectives. seeds at gn.apc.org will do it and come in advance.
we need people from belgrade to check about where to find and buy food for
the various cooking collectives
decorte at eunet.yu is in contact with "food not bombs" collectives from
ukraine, croatia and belgrade who will come and cook.
nicolu at no-log.org is in touch with a french cooking collective who will come
contact people are still : bozavine at yahoo.co.uk, seeds at gn.apc.org, and
decorte at eunet.yu from belgrade.
15) [P] insurances :
we need someone to find the needed informations about it for both camps,
buildings and public activities...
16) [P] electricity / phone / computer connection
we should ask all the groups who need electricity, internet connection and
phone-lines to send quickly precise details about their need (cooking
collectives, office, infopoints, legal team, translation group, indymedia
someone from indymedia would like to take care about that and send a call to
every group asking them what they need.
we need people who want to build an electric system.
decorte at eunet.yu
----- End forwarded message -----
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