[Pga_europe_process] PakiTV , please turn down the volume!

elviejo at greenmail.ch elviejo at greenmail.ch
Tue Jul 20 11:39:10 CEST 2004

I don't know anything about you, West Essex Zapatista, apart from your nice
name, and I don't claim to be a judge of your opinions about Asia, gender
in Africa or horizontality in Yugoslavia. You could be an expert on all
of them. I would just like to ask you to write less aggressive emails. You
can defend your positions without presupposing that others are automatically
hierarchical cliques.
I don't know you, but I do know three very different people that you have
attacked publicly on this list on different subjects in a few weeks.I know
that, though they certainly have their faults, they are very dedicated and
- like most of us - doing the best they can. You probably are too, but this
kind of mail doesn't give that impression.

Email lists are now well known for being a dangerous media,in which "flaming"
regularly occurs (that is people sending back more and more agressive replies,
with copies to half the universe and at the speed of light), when face to
face it might have been an interesting argument. I've seen it on every list
I'm on (including at my rather placid Swiss job). So please everyone let's
be a bit more careful and considerate and confident in our collective good

This doesn't mean that we shouldn't be vigilant concerning hierarchy, etc.,
just that we shouldn't be paranoid. We can be critical while staying respectful
of each other and assuming that the person basically means well. Criticism
towards friends in the movement is not like attacking the enemy. It should
be expressed in a way that maximises the chances that the person can recognise
and change, not as a public accusation that can only provoke a reaction
of self-defense and anger. What is the goal? To drive out a "leader"? That
just leaves the job vacant for the next one. Been happening for centuries.
Surely the idea is to make us all (including the "leader") more aware of
- and resistant to - the ideology which permeates us all.

More generally, as someone else has already pointed out, dominating lists
with these exchanges give the impression that we are a bunch of nuts that
no one in his right mind would travel across Europe to meet.

Which is not true at all really.
Looking forward to Belgrade!

>-- Message original--
>Date: Mon, 19 Jul 2004 14:25:04 -0700
>To: breakingthesilence at gendertrouble.org, fin at poivron.org,
>  kevin.smith at gmx.net
>From: <paki.tv at cyber-rights.net>
>Cc: pga_europe_process at squat.net
>Subject: [Pga_europe_process] gender-reader submission
>Hash: SHA1
>Fin wrote:
>>okay i reckon that the text on the yoruba beliefs is written from
>>a colonialist partiarchal perspective of a martiarchal culture and
>>it would be innapropriate to include this in a gender reader for the
>I do not understand why the text on Oshun has been dropped.
>OK it could be submitted in Yoruban, but then probably very few people
>could rewad it. Marco of Eurodusnie expalined at the london conference
>that all applications from Nigeria and Ghana have been treated as bogus,
> because he was of the opinion that they did not come from genuine groups
>but people who were trying to gain admittance to the European Union but
>were too stupid to realise that Serbia was not part of the EU.
>There was some discussion about the way certain languages were imperialistic
>(in particular English and Russian) - indeed it was decided that everything
>should be produced in English, Post-Yugoslavian and Russian.
>So simply because this story has been translated into English, is no
>reason why it should not be included. It has hard to see any other reason
>why it has been suggested that this text is written from a "colonialist
>partiarchal perspective".
>Perhaps we've got this non-hierarchical business wrong - but we thought
>it was to do with not having a hierarchy, rather than just having a clique
>pretending that they are not hierarchy.
>Still if the worst comes to the worst, we can always use the reader as
>fuel for the bonfire whilst we keep warm at night.
>West Essex Zapatista

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