[Pga_europe_process] estafette report ?
anro at riseup.net
Mon Nov 8 12:50:07 CET 2004
il-y-en-a deux que je peut te reenvoyer, un par Olivier, qui a ete
discute ensuite (voir attachment et au-dessous) et un par Friederike
(en allemand, au dessous)
a participer la liste "estafette" (nouveau nom: pga_chain_reflaction) tu
peut ecrire un email a: pga_chain_reflaction-subscribe at lists.riseup.net
(la subscription est modere)
ni co lu wrote:
> sorry people, but has there been any report about the estafette meeting that
> happened in london during the counter-esf events.
> I'm working on the pga newsletter project and would like to give update news
> about the estafette stuff if things have been deeper discussed or if
> concrete first proposals happened... But I have either missed the report or
> can't find it or think that there is as there isn't one....
> any help ?
Subject: Re: [pga_chain_reflaction] My notes from London
From: boud <boud1 at wp.pl>
Date: Fri, 22 Oct 2004 19:33:35 +0200 (CEST)
To: pga_chain_reflaction at lists.riseup.net
On Fri, 22 Oct 2004, Olivier De Marcellus wrote:
> The discussion about the name was important, because it was also
about getting the idea really clear. Actually, the heart of the idea is
to concentrate on the sharing, passing on from one place to another, of
a more serious reflection on our actions. Hence the name a Chain
It's much more than that. There's the difference between linear growth
and exponential growth - in a chain reaction there is positive feedback
which lead to exponential growth. (i'm being lazy and writing only in
English and not giving URLs to explain these to people with not much
scientific background here because i've already spent a lot of time
contributing to the first attempt at a wiki and i'd rather contribute
to the next wiki where we really *can* efficiently get into exponential
instead of linear growth of actions - and this includes multilingualism.)
But a simple example is: if the number of people "active" doubles each
month and we start with 100 people, then in just under three years' time
have all six billion of us active. Meaning that Bush and Bill Gates and
bin Laden will be totally fucked because none of them can resist six billion
coordinated, organised people acting in solidarity.
This can only happen if the *method* can genuinely propagate. Mailing
lists quickly slow down in their "chain reactions", unless people know
enough to locally create new lists. The difficulty in reorganising
info also slows things down. Wikis put us in a new phase. And to the
"technophobes": a wiki is easier to use than email!!! If you can use email,
you can definitely use a wiki.
> It wouldn't HAVE to be big and simultaneous (that would be confusing
it with a global day of action and would even at the limit be
self-defeating. How could people really pay attention and profit from
the experiences of others if they all happen at once? ). The advantage
of this idea is that it can start very small, with a few places, but if
they do an interesting job of it, certainly many other places will get
interested. Simply because everyone is looking for the answers to
similar questions, for new ideas, etc.
IMHO there's no point trying to spread the idea until we've got the
basics in place. Meaning a few dozen of the basic pages in several different
languages, and probably at least a dozen or so people actively editing,
correcting, reorganising the pages in several languages.
> However, it would obviously be nice to have a relatively solid, large
"critical mass" at the outset. We talked of having a "core group" of
groups committed to the idea on more than one continent, if possible. It
seemed that would be relatively possible say in Europe, the US, probably
Argentina or Brazil.
IMHO there's no point trying to get any respect as a grassroots group
if we do not try to take advantage of the *existing* electronic networks.
We've got active, autonomous indymedia groups in India, Japan, the
Philippines, and their are *extremely* active groups in S. Korea -
they don't have formal links with indymedia, but their actions could
be very inspiring to people in other parts of the world.
The next PGA global meeting is planned for Nepal: it would look extremely
silly IMHO to start off with a site including no Asian groups at all.
In Africa, the high cost of internet access means not many groups apart
from S. Africa are internet active, but certainly it wouldn't hurt to
make an effort in contacting them.
Isn't PGA = people's *global* action??? America (S+N) + Europe is not
> 1) If we happened to all have the same subject on our agendas we
could very well call it a "Chain Refl-Action on No-Borders" or on work
conditions or public services or whatever.
> 2) Or the theme could be some common aspect of our different
activisms, such as : A Chain Refl-Action on breaking out of the ghetto,
or organising horizontally, etc.
Breaking out of the English-speaking ghetto is difficult if all discussion
is in English.
> 3) At the limit, one could imagine a "Chain Refl-Action on activism "
in general. The common ground of discussion would be given by the list
of "possibly pertinent questions (PPQ)". I made a list of stuff from
different mails in the thing I sent before (just as examples):
> - Was there an immediate cause for your action? If so, which?
> - What is, in your opinion, the 'global' dimension of your
> - Which striking things you've learned from this action you
think are important for other activists to know?
> - Did your action attract some media-attention and if so,
what were they focussing on?
> - Did this action help you reach out beyond the usual circle
of activists and or not ? If so why? Was it the theme? the form of
action or communication? the kind of
> preparation, contacts, etc., made before? Or what?
> - After this action do you feel that you will have more or
less political space, freedom of action, with respect to repression? Why?
The idea of a template is nice, as long as some people do the translation
> I guess too that what is decisive is what the 4 or 5 first groups
want. What they have or don't have in common. After it will probably
evolve in some unforseen direction anyway!
> So that brings us to the last points made in the reunion: We need to
decide about themes and do outreach. Who actually could imagine doing this?
IMHO there's no point imagining this until we have a functioning wiki
with people actively building up content and structure.
> A very last point. It would be nice to start on some symbolical day.
We thought of the first day of spring, March 21st.
Reminder: people's *Global* action. Think Global (well only planetary,
really). Spring is not global. In the south below the tropic of Capricorn
21 March is the beginning of autumn. In the tropics it can typically be
something like the end of the dry season (north) or the end of the wet
season, and spring doesn't have much meaning.
The present discussion is one between people who are fluent in English
and handle email well.
If the discussion moves to the wiki, it will more easily be able to move
to a multilingual discussion with people who don't have much
email skills, but are willing to edit in public.
Wikipedia.org is evolving extremely well in the multilingual direction. It's
dominated by languages of the richest countries, but at least it's
multi-lingual among those languages - the English fraction is well below
50% and continues to drop - and the others are present.
Subject: [pga_chain_reflaction] comments on notes from london
From: infoladen <infoladen_hanau at gmx.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 23:03:16 +0200
To: pga_chain_reflaction at lists.riseup.net
The following is meant as first comments on Oliviers notes from
London. What is most important from my point of view is in fact the
content of the whole thing.
The idea that had been presented at the spokes council in Belgrade
said besides things about the method the following about the theme:
„ „TAKING it BACK“ - (...) The theme Taking it Back can include many
things and can therefore be adapted on a local level. Taking it back
is a different word for „reclaiming“ and „reappropriation“. The „it“
in Taking it Back could be for example: the commons, public space,
housing, land, workplaces, water, etc.“
As I said in London I would like to concentrate again on the idea,
what - as I understood - was behind. Out of that reasons the
possibilities Olivier set about the content are not really fitting,
and I think we have to think about the first idea once again. About
the method the proposal Olivier sent via that list had been a step
forward from what had been said at the spokes council. I think it is
really practical and well done. But as I mentioned also before the
meeting in London I think there should be a combination in a call for
that action between the method and a content. To refer to Oliviers
possibilities concerning the content:
>>1) If we happened to all have the same subject on our agendas we
>>could very well call it a "Chain Refl-Action on No-Borders" or on
>>work conditions or public services or whatever.
I think this had not been the background when the idea came up – it
had really been mixed with the thought about having something which
could be a bridge between very different reappropriating struggles.
>>2) Or the theme could be some common aspect of our different
>>activisms,such as : A Chain Refl-Action on breaking out of the
>>ghetto, or organising horizontally, etc.
this is a question of the „level“ – what we could reach with that
actionform would possibly be one step in direction „out of the
ghetto“, but as the central content it is too much on the level of
criticism INSIDE the network, the activist scene... the challenge
would be even in the call to find references to other struggles, what
means to try to mention some of them, trying to get some groups
involved who have a special kind to work on different fields related
to struggles which are more daily based and not so much concentrated
on the own activist scene, for example this could be yomango, groups
from Poland who worked about evictions of flats together with people
who were affected, around the struggles against privatisation in the
factories Serbia, about the appropriating moments of migration or even
the squatting of land in South America... I could imagine a long list
– also because the theme is really very wide. And I think the
challenge would be to say some words about the (re)appropriating
moments within those struggles. What would not mean to declare
„braking out of the ghetto“ in the title but more trying to do it via
the content of a call and via trying to involve groups who have done
an inspiring work about that before for a kind of launch day at the
beginning. For the call I could imagine some kind of short overview
(which would be for sure more a kind of spotlights than any kind of
“complete” list) about ongoing struggles which we see as
(re)appropriating, challenging the system...
>>3) At the limit, one could imagine a "Chain Refl-Action on activism "
>>in general. The common ground of discussion would be given by the
>>list of "possibly pertinent questions (PPQ)".
Again this is a kind of inside view – and I think to really “break the
ghetto” we should not ONLY refer to an activist practise. This is a
level what should be included – and therefore the questions are quite
helpful. But for some possible outreach I think we should really refer
to something, give it some examples...
...On “Reappropriation”, “Taking it Back”, “Reclaiming”, “recreation”
What is missing in the notes are parts of the discussion we had about
the title. Which dealt with different proposals – as the ones
mentioned above. About “Reappropriation” I understood that it does not
have that special meaning what the similar word “Aneignung” in german
got in the last two years. So perhaps it is really not useful at the
moment for an europeanwide or even global level. “Taking it Back” had
been discussed in the spokes council at Belgrade as another word for
it. As I understood it, it had been a new creation which should be
more easy to understand for people which are not familiar with some
kind of activist slang. “reclaim” was criticised as “old-fashioned” or
something. In the discussion in London some people said “recreation”
would be a good word for it – up to now I don’t really understand it’s
special meaning in that context. I would really prefer to use some of
the three things that were in the discussion before - also each of
them has it’s limitations. Perhaps someone knows another word for it
which is international understandable – my english is perhaps too
Later on in London at a short pga-related meeting there was
an objection against the 21st of march, because it would be too close
to the second antiracist action day, it was said that it should be on
23rd. For sure the date for it is the 2nd of april now. There was also
something about another action-day on 19th of march – but I can’t
remember any more what it should be about. I think it is okay to keep
the 21st – what do you think?
Launch at the beginning:
Again this includes the question if we mean it as “global” or if we
more realistic choose perhaps one seize smaller like “europeanwide”.
What depends on the possibilities we have to reach groups for this
launch-day, -week or whatever. For me it would make much more sense to
concentrate for example on getting groups out of eastern europe
involved than to have a second continent in it - if this means some
western europeans and us-activists do it together. I don’t know how
realistic the idea was about “5 groups in the launch, one of each
continent”, that came up in the london-meeting. Out of our group we
don’t have such close global contacts – and I’m a bit sceptical if it
is that easy as it sounded at that meeting. But perhaps others who are
longer involved in the global process think the network is strong
enough, this type of action would fit in the various realities for
example in Asia or Africa. For me the challenge would be to really
bring some groups into exchange who have different ways of dealing
with those connections to (re)appropriating struggles, so that it
would not be reduced on some nice squatters actions (nothing against
So far as some first thoughts, greetings, marion
Hopefully in a written form this is more easy to understand than when
I tried to say that in London. ;)
mailto:infoladen_hanau at gmx.net
Subject: [multitude] Bericht von pga meetings in London
From: Friede99 at gmx.de
Date: Sun, 24 Oct 2004 16:09:59 +0200 (MEST)
To: multitude at lists.riseup.net
sorry, seit einer Woche will ich diese Mail schreiben, war aber mit einer
Veranstaltungsrundreise zu sehr beschäftigt.
Es geht nur darum, ganz kurz noch mal die Ergebnisse der beiden pga-Treffen
auf dem Beyond ESF in London zusammen zu fassen:
Wir waren ein gutes Dutzend Leute, teilweise noch neu in dem Prozess, und
zwar aus den Ländern UK, D, CH und USA.
Zunächst mal haben wir nach kurzer Diskussion den Namen in "Chain
Refl-Action" geändert, da uns dieser eingänglicher und verständlicher
Es wurde auch der Inhalt noch mal neu diskutiert. Weiterhin bleibt Aneignung
unser Arbeitstitel, doch haben wir immer noch keinen
öffentlichkeitswirksamen Titel gefunden. Am ehesten Anklang fand
„Recreation“, was auf deutscher Seite jedoch esoterische Assoziationen
Dann haben wir überlegt, was wir von dem Launch (Global Action) Day
eigentlich wollen, und haben uns darauf geeinigt, es weniger als allgemeinen
großen Global Action Day zu verstehen, zu dem breit aufgerufen wird, sondern
in erster Linie klar zu machen, dass (möglichst) auf jedem Erdteil eine
Aktion an diesem Tag als Auftakt stattfindet.
Als Datum wurde der 21.03.2005 ausgeguckt (Frühlingsanfang in UK, D, CH und
USA), allerdings gab es seitdem schon gewichtige dagegen (kein
Frühlingsanfang im globalen Süden oder Mitte sowie umrahmt von anderen
Großereignissen), so dass er womöglich wieder verändert wird.
Es wird von einer Klein-Gruppe ein Launch-Text-Entwurf erstellt werden.
Dann soll die Website http//:societelibre.lautre.net/ verlegt werden, es
steht aber noch nicht ganz fest, wohin.
Von den Nicht-Techies wurde noch mal die Wichtigkeit der
BenutzerInnen-Freundlichkeit der –Wiki-Site betont.
2. allgemeines pga-Meeting
Hier waren ungefähr doppelt so viele Leute und aus wesentlich mehr Ländern.
Es ging vor allem um das Vorziehen des Januar-Termins. Siehe hierzu ggf. die
Diskussion auf der process-Liste seitdem, die Diskussion ist wesentlich
weiter fortgeschritten inzwischen (wahrscheinlich doch kein Vorziehen,
sondern im Februar, da auch die weltweite Konferenz auf August verschoben
Report von Belgrad:
Es fehlt immer noch der allergrößte Teil der Reports. Wer noch was hat,
sollte mal gucken, ob er/sie das nicht schicken sollte.
Karawane nach Nepal, von Bratislava aus:
Hierzu gab es am Montag nach dem ESF noch ein weiteres Treffen. Wer kann
Es soll eine Konferenz auf dem Balkan stattfinden, aber so richtig
konkretisiert hat sich das bislang noch nicht.
Mmh, war das schon alles? Wer kann, bitte ergänzen!
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